If Their Is A Soul Where Is It?

[Indigo Child]

[really?]

[Indigo Child]

[Indigo Child]

You also fail to recognise that there are a plural of scientific methods and not just one. The heuristic methods used in medicine, differ to the phenomenological methods used in social sciences, differ to the scientific experiments used in physical sciences. The type of knowledge you are investigating decides what kind of method you can use. Now clearly when you are investigating the mind, you cannot use microscopes to examine the mind, so the best that you can do is study behaviour and draw scientific inferences from that. Likewise, if you are studying social groups, you cannot put them in a laboratory and run tests on them, you have to observe them in their environment and document your findings.

The very first stage of a scientific method is to collect data, not to judge data. That is the last stage of the scientific method. You are suggesting the converse however, you are suggesting beginning with prejudices on what constitutes valid data, and what is ordinary and what is extraordinary. Again I submit to you, you are not doing science, you are doing politics.

I think we can at least agree that the best kind of knowledge is scientific because it can be tested by method, what we absolutely disagree on is that other kinds of knowledge must be dismissed. Nay, all knowledge has to be considered by any true scientist, because all knowledge is data for the scientist. If I am examining the subject of UFO, I have to get a hold of anything I can get on the matter from physical trace evidence, radar reports, photos and films to testimony. As a scientist, I have to be methodical in my approach and critically examine the data.

Now regarding scientific studies of the soul, again similar considerations have to be made. I have to collect data of anything I can find of the matter from evidence of ghosts and poltergeist activity, testimony of those who have seen the soul, testimony and studies of out of body travellers etc. There is another method that has been developed in the East which I discuss in my thread, “Spiritual science” and that is the science of meditation. The science of meditation exploit’s the objectless property of consciousness in order to examine the mind. In order to do this one begins with certain preliminaries such as adjusting ones posture, calming ones mind using breathing techniques and using concentration techniques to suspend the mind. Then one simply watches what goes in the mind as the meditation progresses. The results are replicable and have been successfully mapped by Eastern scientists and Western scientists(Robert Monroe is a pioneer in this field) The process is systematic becasue one gradually goes into deeper and deeper states of consciousness, and each stage phenomenological data can be collected to differentiate one stage to the other. One of the final stages of meditation called Samadhi by the Eastern scientists is where one experiences state of absolute disappearance of subject and object dichotomy and experiences absolute oneness, accompanied by states of pure bliss. These are life transforming experiences.

This is the best method on how the soul can be investigated. The soul is basically that absolute consciousness, the life of life, pure bliss and light one experiences at the end of meditation. You will find it is common for meditators not to identify with their personality, this is because the personality forms an object of our consciousness in meditation, that we know we cannot be that personality. In fact we cannot be anything that forms objects of our consciousness, because it is what we are conscious of.

So if you want to know the soul. Do the experiment of meditation and you will know the soul. However, in order do this experiment you will need to satisfy certain preliminaries: You will need the physical fitness and flexibility to remain seated in one posture indefinitely, you will need to practice regular breathing and concentration exercises to be able to focus your mind. This will require several months, if not years of dedicated practice. Once you have mastered these preliminary stages you can begin meditation.

Spiritual science is only for the most serious seeker of the soul though. Who else is going to dedicate so much time, effort and energy to the endeavour.

[really?]

You win

[Craig Browning]

My Turn

Actually, I'm not here to match wits with you Indigo Child just to offer a proposition based on my various areas of study and experience.

One of my biggest points when I teach Metaphysics and Psychic Development is to kick the boogieman and Hollywood hype out the door, replacing it with logic. Not self-created logic nor rationalism as we've seen exhibited time and again by the various naysayers out there but rather, insights as to how "Psychics" have been trained, starting as a toddler and up, for countless generations. How the disciplines or "skills" given to these children allow them to function in life at a level "above" their peers. This is not a hypothetical claim, you can readily find it in the various writings of groups like the Rosicrucian and even Templar sects. Techniques that allow them to "create" specific happenstances into their lives as well as the lives of others; not in some kind of etheric manner per ce, but by exploiting the "subtle mechanics" within nature which I fear, our ancestors had a superior understanding of than does modern man, even though their "science" was primitive by today's standards.

But they understood the "invisible" including what they know to be angels, the fey, spirits, etc. to be physical expressions. My belief being that much of what they became aware of are the very same invisible things you mention in the above; the very same quarks and Sparks and whatever else is out there and that we are still discovering on nearly a daily basis. History itself testifies of how simple magnetism was demonized by religionists centuries ago; people that saw electricity as the devil's breath or even god's judgment well before "science" was able to put a partial lid on things and "define" it, learn to manipulate it and yet, still can't fully explain it... they know that it "is" and little more. But then there is a lot of phenomena that "they" know exists that has yet to be proven to exists ("they" tend to forget that some of us are aware of such things).

My point is, there is a middle ground in which it all comes together in agreement. What was once perceived as spirits or angles can probably host an alternative explanation or "understanding" in today's world via today's science... especially when we start moving into the amazing realms of Quantum Physics. So maybe it would be wisest to agree with our more cynical friends, disagreeing only by degree... the belief that we are both saying the same exact things just using different terminology.

It's just a thought

[Indigo Child]

Craig, I understand what you are saying by taking a middle ground and explaining supernatural things
according to quantum physics. According to this understanding, spiritual, mystical and religious experiences,
are really just phenomenological descriptions of quantum states. The explanation for how this is possible is
the mind is entangled with the cosmos, and through this principle of entanglement we can explain the minds's
paranormal abilities. This is a very tempting explanation and a nice way to persuade a scientist to accept
the paranormal.

Unfortunately, it is wrong. If you read any good book on quantum physics, such as quantum enigma by Bruce
Rosenblum, you will find a section dealing with the claims that quantum physics justifies spirituality and the
paranormal, a common claim in the new-age religion and philosophy. There is no way to use quantum physics
to explain paranormal phenonena, simply because there is no proof that the mind is also entangled in the same
way, and that, and one can enable quantum effects through the use of intention. Simply put then, as there is no
understanding of how the mind and matter interact in quantum theory, it cannot be used as an explanation.

Secondly, quantum physics is still materialist. It simply redefines what the material is, this material is called variously
as energy, cosmic field, zero point energy, information. This is a much better and lighter than the crass materialism
of the previous paradigm, but it still suffers from the inability to reconcile consciousness, mind and matter.

In fact, I will argue, the ancients had an even better scientific understanding of reality than you give them credit for. I
have given some talks on this on a small platfortm, on Hindu metaphysics. There is a topic on this in the quantum physics
forum entitled, "What is the Quantum world" It is easy to map exactly what quantum physics has discovered with Hindu
metaphysics. They have discovered the Akasha, the zero point energy field, but this is not in fact "quantum" but a doorway
into the higher planes of reality - astral, mental, causal, spiritual and absolute(quantum) In other words rather than quantum
states being causes of spiritual entities like angels, heavens and hells, gods, they are in fact effects of them. So whatever
happens on the higher planes above filters down to the lower planes here. In other words the true determinants and causes
are spiritual entities.

So there is in fact no deterministic explanation for the soul, the soul is outside of causality and its power to direct intention
is its free will. It has power over matter and can make matter do whatever it wants. The signals it sends from the spiritual plane,
propogates through the intermediate planes and when it enters the physical its first manifestation is information.This information
then starts to manifest into solid and physical form. In other words everything begins as intention and ends up as physical form.

How do the Hindus know this? They know this by two methods 1) Vigorous rational systems of logic and 2) Through Yogic perception
The former simply gives you a dry intellectual map, the latter will give you real experience. Many here who have the fortune of going
to the astral plane will already know what I say is true. That reality begins as spritual and then gradually becomes denser and physical.

[Craig Browning]

Ok You've proven that your smarter than a 5th grader but can you communicate with people and convey what you're saying on a 6th grade level?

I'm not saying that to be sarcastic only that you are speaking over the head of the average human being (most of whom -- including college grads -- have a 4th grade comprehension level). What I have stated and how I explain it is rather simplistic, even "mundane" when it comes to the higher levels of intellectual perspective, but my task is to demystify as much as I can so that folks aren't throwing tens of thousands of dollars at some ego sitting cross legged in an Ashram when he's not running about the country in one of his Bentley's or Roll's.

The "fantasy" of human spirituality/mysticism is the thing I want to remove from the mind of my patron. Not so as to rob them of their faith but so as to teach them "empowerment" by looking behind the proverbial curtain -- seeing the truth vs. the illusion.

I don't think I mentioned Quantum Physics per ce though I do know of several folks that have gone down that rabbit hole. Yes, I believe aspects of that filed MAY help explain more of what people have referred to as "Magick" or "PSI" and even Astral experience at some point in the future; the jury is still out. Nonetheless, my perception along side my explanation of things is and will continue to be the idea that the "invisible" realms are actually there when you choose to see them and know them as a "tangible" reality, be it quarks, photons or whatever else is out there in the form of finer energy... last I checked "finer" or "higher vibration" around energy has always been the explanation given by mystics, gurus, wizards and witches so either they are correct (which would in fact sustain the Quantum Science claims) or someone in the mix is changing the meanings/linguistics and semantics tied to such associations.

HINT: I know where the pea really is when the shells get moved about

I'm really not trying to argue with you... in fact my original post was mostly in agreement to what you'd previously shared. But your retort could be viewed as to have come from someone that either can't accept agreement on things, even in part; or you simply enjoy gushing out a treatise composed of million-dollar words that quickly loose the common audience. It's a classic move by charlatans (not that I'm calling you such) and politicians who know that people don't want to feel dumb so they just censor out the big terms and "agree" for the most part, as long as most of what they hear/read seems to sustain their personal points of view. This brings us back to what I said in the opening here about toning down the "I'm smarter than all of creation" image you paint in your writing to a level in which the common "man" can actually translate what you are saying and decide, with a more clarified sense of perception, if or not he/she/it agrees with your assessment. "They" quickly lean towards agreement with what I share because I'm speaking their language -- I speak to them and not at them, as my granny used to say.

Pardon if I got your reply "wrong" but I'm just a simple guy that learned what he knows by being in the trenches of life and fortunate enough to stand shoulder to shoulder with some of the leading authorities on theology, philosophy and metaphysics (including Hermetics) as a whole. I know enough to note that "New Age" is not a "religion" but a mode of thought that comes out of an eclectic gathering of actual traditional teaching and some far left conjecture/fantasy/delusion. Like any such "fringe" factor, it tends to be rife with all forms of verbal gymnasts peddling the same snake oil but with different bullet points. When Angels first became cool all the books about fairy magick were suddenly retitled and slightly edited so that Angels were called upon instead of the fey folk. Then John Edward & Co. hit the scene in a big way so everyone is now talking to dead people... the list is outrageously long but the story always the same. That's one of the main reasons I chose to break out of the mold that's been exploited for eons and simplify it all; robbing the church of its devils & demons while robbing the patron of their excuses and delusions. When it's boiled down to the bare bones and all the clutter tossed off to the side, the "truth" can be easily found. It's not nearly as phenomenal as our ancestors kept making it out to be and I'm confident our grandchildren's grandchildren will be saying the same thing about how we presently see the spiritual and miraculous... the unexplainable and phenomenal, as their science not just explains it, but makes it all accessible and very much "real"

[Indigo Child]

I apologise if my language is too technical, but I know of no other words to describe the same.
The best I can do is clarify things that you have not understood, and I have been told by several
people I have a gift for that. I can explain complex metaphysics to the common person, with
simply arguments, examples and illustrations.

You will not be able to make the spiritual go away, whether that be descriptions of angel, demons and
spirits and explain them away as energy vibrations, dancing quarks, and information fields,
because the latter is merely an effect of the spiritual. Ultimately, everything is spiritual and has
spiritual causes. The ancients were not far off when they said that disease was caused by demons,
and the gods govern the principles of nature. The true reality of the universe is much like the enchanted
universe of the child, it is magical, fully of magical places and magical beings and divine beings like
angels, masters and gods, as well as hells and demons. This is because the universe is the nature of
imagination and therefore everything is posible. I was once taken aback when my Gnostic teacher was
describing astral battles with demons, and it was as if he was describing something from fantasy,
he was describing firing rays of light at them, drawing magic circles around yourself to create magical sheids
around you, and uttering spells and incantations to make various things manifest. He also describes the existence
of astral councils of masters of light and masters of darkness. He described to me astral civilisations, kingdoms
of elves, fairies, wizards and witches. He also told of astral schools, like Hogwartz, where people are taught
magical powers.

Then I realised why I was having such a reaction. It is because our minds have been disenchanted by modern science,
where we want scientific explanations for reality. It has to be explained in terms of atoms, waves, energy fields or
holographic projections. We balk when we hear descriptions like "rays of love" "love frequency" "Mother Earth" "Father sky"
because we have been programmed to think of this as primitive. We want impersonal descriptions. You yourself declare you
want to get rid of this language completely. However, ask any regular astral travellers, and they will tell you that the true nature
of reality is just like the enchanted world of the child. It is magical. I myself have experienced it, my Gnostic teacher regularly
astrally travels and reports the same, and one of biggest authorities on astral travelling Robert Bruce also confirms it. Near death
experiences also confirm it. We need to re-enchant our views of reality and regain the sense of wonder and magic of the child.
Bring back the gods, fairies, elves, angels, demons.

[Indigo Child]

Metaphysical terms are very tempting to describe reality such as absolute reality,
universal consciousness, subject-object interactions, illusion, phenomena, noumena,
psychophysical complex, causality, universal, particular. The philosopher falls into this
trap. To a large extent I have fallen into this trap, but I am starting to come out of it...

The scientists falls into the trap of trying to describe things scientifically, energy,
atoms, matter, waves, quarks, actvity, inerial frames, space-time, dimensions,
probability, holographic fields, implicate and explicate order.

This is nothing more than just word play and both are traps. If you go beyond words
and try to explain reality you will experience it in terms of the archetypal forms, the
language of feeling, love, spirit, community, imagination. As soon as we realise that
the very substance of reality is imagination, then we will realise that it is absolutely
boundless and everything is possible.

[ciscop]

[really?]

[Craig Browning]

While a cruel jest, I have to second what Really? is saying here. But the axiom "Anything is possible" get's tossed around in such a random way from the faith-filled as well as intellectuals.

Ok Indigochild, let me clarify one thing... I don't wish to rob people of the spiritual experience, just their ignorance. I want them to better understand what they are dealing with and why (most likely) the "Old Ones" designed the various exercises and rites as they did; all of it hosting very specific purpose that has nothing to do with invoking the Gods, Dead People, Big Bad Guys, etc. but rather addressing one's own psyche -- our higher-self (deity)or lower-self (demonic).

We know today that numerous illnesses that we can now treat are the very same demons and devils that were "cast out" by the prophets, seers, healers, messiah, etc. 2,000+ years ago. We can understand why certain natural springs were seen as healing; not because of literal "magick" but the minerals and other qualities of the water and how such interact with a variety of human ills. So again, we find logical/scientific reasons for the "miraculous" or "enchanted".

The "Wise Ones" were such because of education, be it an understanding of nature on the most base of expression (low magick) or through the study of planets, chemicals, minerals, etc. (high magick... which actually evolved into present day sciences of chemistry, astronomy, physics, etc.) Too, as far back as Hermes and Pythagoras you will see how the analytical was a part of the mystical. It was only through the influence and rise of Christianity that a separation was invented; an illusion that allowed Orthodoxy to gain an upper-hand by way of segregation and being able to point to one thing and call it "Evil" and another as "good". But they ended up tripping over their own two feet as people started getting educated (thanks to the printing press) and realizing a greater truth... and the truth will set you free!

I'm an exceptionally spiritually oriented man... hell, I work as a Psychic and Metaphysical teacher and author (as well as retired entertainer). I've not just studied, I've participated in and been initiated through several Western occult traditions, New Age elements like Alpha Consciousness, Science of Mind, Course in Miracles, etc. I'm likewise a hobbyist in things like Ghost Hunting, PSI Research and the whole Holy Blood/Holy Grail intrigue but I'm also a realist. My "faith" as it were, is based on the more miraculous and unexplainable and impossible to replicate experiences I've had over the years; experiences that prevent me from becoming a total and immersed atheist... and trust me, I've more than enough reason to think in that direction, starting with the duplicity found in nearly every single religion and formalized philosophy (a.k.a. cult tradition) going with the Abrahamic trinity leading the way with the most lies, deceptions and public betrayal bar none! Hell, Hitler and Stalin are Saints compared to the atrocities of "The Church" the past 2,000 years.

So the fact that all things are "spiritually based" is a bit of a misnomer. Yes, "man" is here as a spiritual entity having a physical experience. But we are not here to bend over and kiss the glowing tukkiss of some ego claiming to be a "god" or better than us. No, "God" (whatever that might be) put us here (metaphorically speaking) TO LEARN... to Become as He. Our "Quest" (at least in the majority of the teachings I'm aware of) has always been evolutionary and moving towards the center which is where Nirvana becomes known... when we awaken to the reality that we really are "connected" to all things... we are all things... not due to mysticism but because of the scientific realization that we are atomically, chemically and on so many other mundane levels "Space Dust" just like everything else. The "Spiritual" side to all of this is what happens when we finally thump ourselves across the forehead as the result of realization -- waking up and actually seeing the trees that make up the forest rather than being blinded by them and seeing only the blanket they create upon the landscape.

The forests are vast and layered, begging us to dig ever deeper. This is the spiritual journey!

[Indigo Child]

Craig, the biggest illusion of our times is that we have progressed. We see our civilisation as a deparature from the "primitive" civilisation of the past, starting our civilisation from the rationality of the Greek philosophers and the beginning of analytical thinking there, which ultimately culminates in scientific empiricism, replacing all previous spiritual descriptions of reality with scientific ones.
The premodern descriptions of demons and evil spirits as the cause of disease, is replaced by germs, microrganisms and viruses. The descriptions of gods controlling the elements is replaced by laws of nature. The descriptions of lifeforce regulating our body is replaced by biological systems. We are told this is "progress" over our "primitive and superstitious" ancients.

Hogwash, all we have done is replaced one description with another description and turned our new description into a dogma. However, this dogma has not lasted and in the 20th century positivism was defeated. It was no longer right to say anything positively is the cause of something, because whatever we think something is, we later learn it is something different altogether. All science has done is exposed its ignorance about not knowing what anything is. However, the esoteric traditions know exactly what things are. They know that the causes of all things are spiritual and then they become denser and denser resulting in what we call physical reality. In the Ayurveda tradition for instance they knew about the existence of germs and microrganisms as early as 5000 years ago, called "Krimis" and gave extensive descriptions of various types of Krimi and what they look like physically, according with descriptions by microbiologists, without the aid of microscopes. It also explains that they really were demons in the higher planes.

Likewise the ancients knew about the body and its various biological systems, but they also knew that the body had more fundamental levels of reality such as the etheric pranic body within which lifeforce flowed. More fundamental than these going in a sequence of density is astral, mental, causal/intentional and spiritual. In other words at the most fundamental level of reality everything begins as spiritual causes.
Modern science is not far off in realising that there are more fundamental causes than physical causes. In other words it is just going to come full circle to the same explanations premodern people gave gods controlling nature not laws, demons causing disease not germs, spirit regulating the body not biological systems.

As I discussed earlier while it is impossible for something physical to evolve into something non physical, it is not impossible the other way around. Something non physical can gradually become physical through a process of gaining density. Just as before there is anything we call solid physical matter, it is fluidic energy. If you take the chain way back you gradually realise everything is pure spirit and the entire world is a transformation of spirit. It is therefore all the imagination of spirit. When you realise the imaginative nature of reality, you can play with it just as a child plays with his imagination.

[Indigo Child]