Eteponge I need your help!

[Maddogkull]

I have recently been debating a hardcore atheist (not even open minded one bit) Just thinks everything to do with NDES is 100% physical. Now he kept telling me that NDEs have been made in laboratory tests, and proved that that it is just in the brain. Something about putting a helmet on and zapping the brain or something. But basically he said it has been proven to just be in the brain. I have tried to do some research on the subject, but whoever I ask about it on any board all I get are skeptical answers. I never get answers that the possibility that NDEs are more mystical then people think. Do you know if you can give me some answers to some questions?

Isn’t the white tunnel just your optic nerves backfiring, so you see a white light?
If the Vagus nerve is simulated, isn’t that just what a OBE/NDE is?
Has NDE's almost been proven just to be physical?
What are your views of NDE's? (Do you believe in a afterlife?)
Anything else you can help me out with will be greatly appreciated

I cannot give you anything in return but I’ll give you some brownie points.

[ProfWag]

[really?]

[Maddogkull]

Yeah, I'm pretty young compared to the general consensus. 20 years old lol. The thing I don’t understand, with eteponge he presented information that the brain produced information when you have no brain waves. How is that possible?

[ciscop]

well.. the thing about it is that NDE can happen anytime
while you are unconscious
lets suppose i am having a heart surgery and during that time i ¨die¨
my NDE could have happened way before ¨i died¨
there´s no way of knowing when it really happened

really mentioned the recreation of NDE with recreational drugs
i want to mention that a group of psychologists created a horn that produced a sound that helped create a ¨divine¨ experience.. not a NDE, but it just shows you how there are certain things that can stimulate that part of the brain to create those sort of mystical experiences.

not sure why you bother debating
is one of those topics were there wont be a winner
NDE is for people that believe in them, those that dont, only have weird dreams (if they recall them at all).

[Eteponge]

[Maddogkull]

I got one question, It makes 100% sense that if you can experiance conscinouss after death, means there is some sort of afterlife. But what if it is just your brain being distored. In that state, You can defintly bet that there would be time distortion? What do you think?

[ciscop]

not really
it could be just an hallucination
same experience has been reported by users of ketamine

it isnt black and white.. it could be either of, that´s the problem with NDEs
you want to believe in an afterlife and NDE help you do it, so hold on to it if that´s what you want

[really?]

The real reason NDE's are touted as clear evidence to some as proof of an afterlife is that unpleasant reality called Death.

[Maddogkull]

What about me? Someone who wants nothing more then nothing after death, but sees that most likley there will be some kind of afterlife? I guess I am in the minority.

[ProfWag]

[Maddogkull]

As you know we do not know a lot about the universe. Just the fact that we’re are here seems like good evidence. To you it makes perfect sense this all started by accident, but to me it doesn’t make sense. Different strokes for different folks. I was talking to a physicist, and what she told me was we know what energy does, but we do not know the inner nature of energy. People dismiss it as being nothing; some people say there is something to it. There might be a certain kind of Aether(not talking about a “god” by the way) connected at the plank scale, like how Nikola Tesla predicted. Nikola Tesla, in my opinion was way more intelligent the Einstein, and came up with tons of better theory’s (now were left making up assumptions of mystical forces like dark matter or energy) Do we honestly think one man got this whole universe pinned down with his equations?. There is so much we have to learn about the universe. Skeptics try to debunk the holographic theory of the universe, by actually talking to theoretical/mainstream physicists who are agnostic, all of them tell me is that you cannot debunk certain theories like that. We do not know what a singularity is, we really don’t.....like what Hawkins said, It’s like saying what’s north of the North Pole. We will never most likely know what that singularity is. It could be a blueprint to this whole universe. Once it exploded the universe happened. You might think I am whoo whoo saying that, but honestly there are no facts you can give me that actually proves this singularity means nothing special. Cause we do not know. To me it just seems like we are here or a certain reason, who knows. And yes an NDE in my opinion, most likely proves there’s an afterlife, (if the person has no brainwaves). Eteponge showed detailed information showing that NDEs aren’t necessarily hallucinations. You should look into Roger Penrose’s work (if you already haven’t) he is a really smart person, he’s not some whacky guy like Deepak Chopra, and a lot of his theories are great. But yeah the truth is, "We Do Not Know” that’s what is comes does to. We only have assumptions.

[leo100]

[Twain Shakespeare]

Right with you Maddongkull. As Sokrates and Siddharta pointed out, once you nirvanize, there is no more you. The alternative scares the shit out of me so bad that when I first "believed" it, I leaped into the arms of Jesus (he's divorced me since when he found out I was part monkey, the creationist chauvanist [Shut up, Shakespeare!])

Eteponge, that was amazing. Anecdotely, I have heard one account where consciousness in an NDE observed events that occured during clinical death, but even the NDE takes the null that it was a creation of his mind. The minimal beta is that, at times, the body and the psyche do not cohere. Personally, I estimate that is slightly more likely than the null, but that leads down the slippery slope.

[Craig Browning]

I'm a firm believer in NDE's and Out of Body situations... I actually teach a workshop on Astral Travel but one of the things I point out to every student is that the starting point to it all is MENTAL PROJECTION it has nothing to do with silver chords, spirituality, mysticism, etc. it's simply allowing your mind to drift and move along a focused sense of journey, literally letting your own imagination open certain doors of insight to you... very much a waking type of dream.

True Astral Projection (a.k.a. bi-location, clairvoyance), such as one comes to know at death or near death in limited cases, requires many influences. When done consciously it only happens after years of discipline and even then, the eager will frequently delude themselves into believing something happened when in truth, it didn't.

Yes, genuine Astral can happen when one sleeps. It's quite common as young one come into puberty and seniors head into their more declining years, but it's rather rare in the years between the two.

When it comes to NDE type accounts there is a huge truth to the fact that it's mental hallucination created by certain bio-electrical discharges. This gives us the tunnel effect and can trigger our memories so that our life flashes before our eyes and/or we find long lost loved ones there at the end of the tunnel, to greet us.

We have to remember that most projection type work has ALWAYS involved the use of sedative and hallucinogenic herb compounds, be it in the form of "tea" or smoke. The other common ritual arrangement included sleep & food deprivation (fasting) which likewise trigger biological "messengers" so to speak, that make us more susceptible to a hallucination based experience. These religious rites keeping us focused on a given purpose behind the journey so that we can personalize it and attach it to something etheric and mystical -- pure psychology!

This does not mean that your experience has no value, only that there is an alternative understanding behind the ritual and why it is designed as it is and why, psychologically, it will impact us in manner that seems to be a "Religious Experience"

The NDE scenarios in which Astral happens and the patient is looking down onto events in their room, home, etc. IS NOT the same thing as those previously mentioned... it is the more mystical exception in that your "consciousness" or "soul" has left the body in a quite literal sense. The shamanic theory being bi-fold; firstly, the spirit must experience certain things in a certain way in order to grow; secondly, you need to out of you physical body so that your consciousness doesn't interfere with the physics tied to the work doctors or EMTs, etc. are doing... you must be an observer rather than a participant. Again, there is a reason for this when it comes to the metaphysics to it all, but it is important that you understand how this is not the same or even related to the tunnel of light, etc. they are quite different things...

One Last Note... I've always found it interesting how some folks don't encounter this famed tunnel & light but rather some dark horrors. Typically, these are individuals with dark secrets in life and possibly even "negative" life-styles in which they inflict cruelty onto others, deny their 'true-self', etc. Because of the osmosis factor, these people have been pre-conditioned to believe that there might be a hell to go to upon death and so when they have an NDE, that's where they go... about two weeks after the NDE however, you'll find them in church