Animal Cruelty

[antiskeptic]

I was wondering, Mr. Wu, if we could start an animal anti-cruelty section of this forum. For whatever reasons, (probably not very good reasons) the skeptic movement seems to have taken a somewhat strong stance against the animal rights movement. Episode number 167 of the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe had a section that was anti-PETA. More recently - so did P. Z. Myers:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009 ... ghouls.php

I know that this is not a paranormal subject, but neither is bigfoot or homeopathy. There are many different ideas that are harshly condemned by the skeptic movement. If we are going to beat them back, as well as promote open-minded thinking, we need to try to protect as many alternative ideas as possible from the attacks of the skeptic movement.

[Scepcop]

I'm a vegetarianism and member of PETA, so I sympathize. Yeah it would be a bit out of place here, but as long as it's for a good cause...

How about the Alternative Holistic Treatments board? Threads about animal rights could go under there. Unless you have a lot to say about it.

Maybe we could change that board to "Alternative Health and Holistic Treatments"?

Are you a vegetarian too? Or vegan? I never did understand why milk and eggs are bad for you, since they are in almost everything, if you're a vegan your choices are severely handicapped to almost zero when you go out to eat. Unless you go to the organic health food deli. lol

It is true though that the skeptic movement is against anything alternative, even if it's good and prevents cruelty. They are dogmatic fundamentalists.

[antiskeptic]

Yeah, I'm a vegetarian. I will probably become a vegan eventually. I do believe that it is cruel and possibly painful to milk cows as much as these companies do. While it may not be unhealthy to eat eggs and cheese I believe that it is more healthy to cut them out. Some people disagree with that, though. You're definitely right, though, that it is difficult to be a vegan. You need to live near some moderately-sized city to be able to eat at vegan restaurants. If I find any more examples of skeptics attacking PETA or any other animal rights initiative I'll post it in the section that you said to post it in.

[wraith]

On the Issue of animal cruelty, I am a proud meat eater, even though i have some days of vegetarianism. I could agree with PETA on some issues, but I believe that they are just anti-human in general, just like some 'environmentalists'.

What I take issue with is when 'animal rights activists' criticize the way how animals are being treated in China and in East Asian countries, or how dog meat is consumed in China. I believe it is not an animal rights issue when it comes to China and other east Asian countries, but more of a cultural clash between East and West.

[antiskeptic]

Well...nothing wrong with being anti-human, or at least anti-most-humans. We're not exactly the kindest race, after all. You can easily come to that conclusion without even looking at any of the horrendous things that most humans do to animals. There are many different kinds of horrible things that humans do all the time. Maybe we can become better in the future, but we still have a lot of work to do to get there. As far as cultural things go, there are some cultural things that should end. Yes, some eastern cultural things are bad, but so are some more western cultural things, like bullfighting. PETA protests bullfighting, too, as well as many other western cultural things that are harmful to animals.

By the way, please don't put the phrases "animal rights activists" or "environmentalists" in quotations like that. That is the sort of thing that skeptics do. They will write "psi researchers" or "ufologists" in quotations. It's a way of making it look as if the whole subject and the proponents of that subject are not to be taken seriously. It's offensive.

[wraith]

[Scepcop]

[Scepcop]

[Scepcop]

[antiskeptic]

[Scepcop]

[antiskeptic]

Well, I think that most people are evil because of the selfishness. I know that selfishness is not always evil, but most people are selfish in ways that are evil. The fact that most people will not even be bothered to buy their shoes from a vegan source like veganstore.com is very evil. I mean, they're just shoes, for god's sake - it's not like there is a huge advantage to having shoes that come from animal flesh. Even with the ease of the internet most people don't even want to put the minimal effort forward to make sure that they are buying in a moral manner. It would be inconvenient, so they put their selfish want to not be inconvenienced above their want to do what's right.

I agree that sometimes you have to be offensive to tell the truth, and those times are okay with me. What bothers me is when people are offensive for no good reason.

[Scepcop]

Well I don't think most people can afford shoes from veganstore.com. When they buy shoes, they only think of looks, style and comfort, not about whether they are leather or not. There are shoes that look like leather but aren't. Most people just do not think about the bigger picture. They only focus on the narrow picture of their lives and how they were conditioned to think by their society, family and peers.

Speaking of selfishness, you have to look out for yourself to some degree. But it depends on what you want. Most people live for themselves and feel a responsibility to do what's best for them, at least in Western Culture.

What do you think of those who are so selfless that they won't do anything for themselves or enjoy any pleasure at all, but only care about others? Society considers them to be admirable and even heros. But I sure wouldn't want to be them.

A person should be balanced, not in one extreme or another, I think.

[antiskeptic]

Well, whether or not someone can afford the shoes is not the reason why they do not buy them. They don't buy them because it is inconvenient - and not fashionable. If it was convenient and fashionable, then most people would buy them and the price would drop like a ton of bricks. I will certainly agree that a big part of the reasoning as to why most people are evil is because "Most people just do not think about the bigger picture. They only focus on the narrow picture of their lives and how they were conditioned to think by their society, family and peers." Most people either do not have the desire or the intelligence (or both) to break free of the chains of their previous conditioning. I'll also agree that a certain amount of selfishness is okay, but not nearly the level that most people in our society exhibit.

[Nostradamus]